Freud

topic posted Sat, January 1, 2005 - 5:42 PM by  Jeff B
So the other day I am reading up on the life Sylvia Plath and the turmoil she went through. Apparently she did see a psychiatrist for the last ten years of her life (1953-1963). One of the diagnoses that the psychiatrist (most likely schooled in Freudian psychology) made was the she was probably not properly toilet trained as a child and this may have lead to her neuroses!

Okay I haven't been formally trained in pyschology though I've done a lot of reading on my own but something struck me after reading this. Why in gods name do we consider Sigmund Freud the modern "father of psychology"?!! What exactly did this man contribute to the study of the mind?

Let's see. We have the concept of penus envy...We have the diagnoses of "hysteria" which was pretty much a catch all diagnoses for just about any problem a woman was having. Granted he didn't come up with this concept but he expanded on it. We have pronouncements with ZERO scientific evidence that the way a child is toilet trained can have a dramtic effect on their psyche. We have the idea that many neuroses are caused by the suppression of "unconscience" painful memories. I think from what we know now about "recovered memories" and "hypnosis" that this is all utter hogwash. We have the practice of "free association" and dream interpretation (nonsense for the most part), etc, etc...

I had this debate with someone who argued that "Well Freud came up with the idea of treating someone's mental problems with talk therapy". I'm sorry but this was NOT a breakthrough. Any layman from the past three hundred years could probably tell you tell that if you have a problem it's good to talk to someone about it. This is not any kind of "revelation". They may not have used the term "psychoanalysis" but the idea is the same. The other argument the person used was that Freud came up with the concept of human "drives". Things that drive all human beings towards certain behaviors. Again, was this really a breakthrough? Wasn't this concept pretty much layed out by Darwin and his successors? Not to mention that I think even most laypeople understood that things like "hunger","sex", and "self-preservation" are basic drives that are common to humanity (with the possible exception of some of the religious kooks of the time).

My main problem with Freud is that he seemed to be UTTERLY unscientific. He didn't run experiments to test these theories out, he just postulated them and than began acting on them when counseling his patients! In other words Sigmund Freud basically practiced WITCHDOCTORY! For a woman to go to a counselor due to epileptic seizures and to be diagnosed with a mental condition resulting from the supposed "suppresion of sexual desires" is something one might expect from a witchdoctor in tribal New Guinea of the time, not from the "father of modern psychology"! In fact not only did Sigmund Freud most likely NOT cure anyone of ANYTHING he contributed to the practice of psychology that probably did more HARM than GOOD! At least if one was treated by a real witchdoctor with a few herbs and some chanting it probably wouldn't have done any HARM unlike Freud's practice of psychology--blaming parents for the neuroses of their kids when this wasn't the case, implanting false ideas and memories into people's minds, telling them that their lustful desires for a parent contributed to their condition, etc.

Can someone explain this to me? Maybe I'm missing something. Because it seems to me like Freud should be the posterboy of what NOT to do in either the field of science, psychology, or the practice of medicine...
posted by:
Jeff B
Indiana
  • Re: Freud

    Sat, January 1, 2005 - 7:44 PM
    Freud seems to make you, really, really uncomfortable... much more than in proportion to the extent that he was wrong about things.

    Why the hostility?

    Tell me about your father...
    • Re: Freud

      Sun, January 2, 2005 - 11:01 AM
      Let's see....my father used to make me wear a dress, smoke cigars, and eat nothing but sausage and hot dogs. He also made me sit down like a female when urinating. But I hardly see how that is relevant...
      • Re: Freud

        Sun, January 2, 2005 - 5:44 PM
        LOL :-)

        I don't think people are wrong to disagree with Freud on specifics, but I think they're a bit quick to dismiss his work both within his limited social context (where it was probably rather valid) and his greater contribution over-all; a model of human behavior which is explicable through the interaction of instinctive drives with environmental stimuli.

        Prior to Freud, not enough significance was assigned to the role of many impulses in forming NORMAL personality. That ALL humans are wired with high potentials for anxiety in resolving pleasure and negative sentiments regarding the anus (for example) wouldn't have been taken as seriously or as soon if it weren't for Freud.

        As for the phallus, gender was a BIG determinant of one's life course in Freud's era, and the penis was the primary determinant of gender. Most of Freud's male subjects should also have rightly had a certain amount of anxiety relating to their respective penii; as Jews in a German-speaking nation, they had penii that arguably marked them for extermination.
        • Re: Freud

          Sun, January 2, 2005 - 7:44 PM
          "I don't think people are wrong to disagree with Freud on specifics, but I think they're a bit quick to dismiss his work both within his limited social context (where it was probably rather valid) and his greater contribution over-all; a model of human behavior which is explicable through the interaction of instinctive drives with environmental stimuli. "

          Sorry but I have to say that I think this was pretty well understood before Freud even by most laymen.

          "Prior to Freud, not enough significance was assigned to the role of many impulses in forming NORMAL personality. That ALL humans are wired with high potentials for anxiety in resolving pleasure and negative sentiments regarding the anus (for example) wouldn't have been taken as seriously or as soon if it weren't for Freud."

          Okay I can see this to a degree. Perhaps he gave a bit more credence to "medicalizing" the mind and treating it like a biological mechanism. However in the broad scope of things he was off base in just about every theory he ever came up with. And most importantly he helped NO ONE. The patients he claimed to have cured were NOT cured. He basically lied about this to protect his reputation (as evident in his letters to his collegues). In fact he probably caused more damage than good by implanting false memories into people's heads and by putting a HUGE guilt trip on the parents of his patients. If he JUST would have said "I DON'T KNOW how the mind works but here are some of my theories which you can take with a grain of salt" than I think I would have a lot more respect for him.

          It just seems to me that the more time passes the more we have come to realize what a fraud he was. The only other comparison that comes to mind is J. Edgar Hoover in terms of reputation. For a time the man was a towering figure in the criminal justice community and a prominent figure in American life despite always being a bit controversial. Today however even right-wingers publically denounce him for being a nut-job and many have even suggested removing his name from the Department of Criminal Justice building.

          I see the guy from the "Straight Dope" agrees with me.

          www.straightdope.com/columns/030912.html
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    Re: Freud

    Sun, January 2, 2005 - 5:42 PM
    But freud did such a great thing...he made it possible for any one of us to go out and kill ten people then claim in court that we did it because mommy didn't love us...and then maybe get away with it cause there will inevitably be a half dozen jury members who didn't get enough love from their mommies. What a wonderful man. :P
  • Re: Freud

    Mon, January 3, 2005 - 6:02 AM
    Well....without Freud we would not be talking about the subconscious mind like we do. He proposed that idea - that there is a part of our mind that is working all the time that we do not have conscious access to. Also - Freud was quite diligent about his studies. He knew they were not perfect and if you read the case of the Wolfman or pretty much any of his case studies you can see in his footnotes that he was always critical of his own work. He amended his own studies for years and years after the actual case. Freud deserves a break.
    • Re: Freud

      Mon, January 3, 2005 - 9:58 AM
      Freud was no worse than others of his time and place in regard to overstating his theory. I believe this is a common aspect to the work of most native German speakers, especially if they're Victorian and Austrian.

      Considering he was addicted to cocaine and cigars, it's probably to his credit that he didn't talk out of his ass even more wildly than Hitler and Schenker (a music theorist who is still highly 70 years after his death, even though it's possible to disprove the core of his theory in about one minute).

      Clinically, Freud may have been a disaster, but he was competing for mindshare with people like Kellogg (an American), who invented corn flakes in order to help people stop masturbating, and who never consummated his marriage of several decades because he didn't want to lose precious bodily fluids.

      Freud's era was an era of nutjobs, many of whom were probably incurable, and so common that he probably couldn't see the forest for the trees.

      Non-clinically, all I have to do is review the footnotes from Totem and Taboo to see how spot-on Freud really was about things outside of his own weird little culture. I still think he was the first writer to correctly identify the basic nature of humor as a function of anxiety.
    • Re: Freud

      Tue, January 4, 2005 - 6:31 AM
      Sorry but I think this is a common misperception. The concept of the subconscience mind had been discussed going back to ancient philosophers. You can read volumes about it via philosophy. He simply popularized the idea in the popular culture and ran with it. And his ideas on the unconscience were so off base that to this day it seems we are still trying to detangle ourselves from his insidious influence. I know this seems like I'm overstating my case but from everything I've read this is what it appears to me. And I'm not alone in this opinion.

      I'll read up on the case that you mention. It seems to me that he may have "tinkered" a bit with his theories but he also claimed to cure people that he obviously did NOT knowing full well he hadn't. In this regard he was either delusional or an outright fraud. As I said before though I will give him credit for medicalizing the study of the mind instead of looking at the mental health problems of human beings as simply "moral failings" which religion is apt to do.
      • Re: Freud

        Fri, January 7, 2005 - 1:12 PM
        From my psychology text:

        Freud was the first to be convinced that "many of his patients' symptoms had mental, not physical causes. Their distress, he concluded, was due to conflicts and emotional tramaus that had occured in early childhood and that were too threatening to be remembered consciously..."

        He further argued "that conscious awareness is merely the tip of the mental iceberg. Beneath the visible tip, lies the unconscious part of the mind, containing unrevealed wishes, passions, guilty secrets, unspeakable yearings, and conflicts between desires and duty.

        Many of these sexual thoughts are sexual or agressive in nature... they make themselves known--in dreams, slips of the tongue, apparent accidents, and even jokes."
        • Re: Freud

          Sun, January 9, 2005 - 5:30 PM
          I'm not aware that anyone before Freud clearly treated the unconscious/subconscious as part and parcel of the same mechanisms as the conscious mind.

          Most pre-Freudian models ascribe products of the unconscious/subconscious to what is essentially an alternate consciousness. Freud did not do this, and it's an important distinction.
          • Re: Freud

            Sat, March 19, 2005 - 2:11 PM
            Oh, come now... we all just need a good bleeding to release the demons, therefore Freud and his psychoanalysis drivel has all proven pointless.
  • Re: Freud

    Thu, February 3, 2005 - 7:39 PM
    although frued is considered the 'father of psych.', most modern day psychologists, except for a select few, strongly oppose his views. you're completely right, he was completely unscientic. his entire theory was based upon conceptual thinking and none of it has ever been able to be measured or proven. however, as much as we find freud to be ridiculous, i do believe some of his main premises are still alive and without his controversial beliefs, it's possible that other, more competent psychologists may not have come along to save us from him. without his psycho-sexual stages of development, we may have never been given erikson's psycho-social stages of development which have given many adults a wonderful guide to understanding their children and ability to provide better parenting.
    • Re: Freud

      Thu, March 24, 2005 - 9:32 AM
      Most of his theories have been disproven by modern psychologists.

      Bizarre how we always think of him as the father of psychology.
  • Re: Freud

    Thu, March 24, 2005 - 3:42 PM
    Freud, who read Shakespeare and new his Greek tragedies, understood human nature.

    Like Joseph Conrad and the painter Goya, he understood the heart of darkness in human nature.

    Freud's nightmares were the 20th century.


  • Re: Freud

    Thu, March 24, 2005 - 7:42 PM
    First, psychology and psychoanalysis are two different things.

    Personally, I find Freud's theories fascinating, especially his understanding of the id, the ego, and the sugerego.

    Much of what you're complaining about has little to do with Freud. He may have spoke about oral and anal phases in child development, but he never to my knowledge blaimed neurosis on toilet training. Nor do I recall him making claims of "suppressed memories". As far as I can tell this is some kind of early misinterpretation of Freud. It is the "drive" the is suppressed that then causes conflict within the person.
    • Re: Freud

      Sat, March 26, 2005 - 10:32 AM
      Brandon's point is supported by a reading of "Civilization and its Discontents" or Conrad's "The Heart of Darkness."
    • Re: Freud

      Sun, April 10, 2005 - 4:11 PM
      "Much of what you're complaining about has little to do with Freud. He may have spoke about oral and anal phases in child development, but he never to my knowledge blaimed neurosis on toilet training."

      I think you better reread Freud. This is EXACTLY what Freud claimed. He claimed that many neuroses were the result of not successfully passing from one stage of psychosexual development into another. And depending on what stage an individual was "stuck" in would manifest itself in certain neuroses. To be "stuck" or "fixated" in the "anal" phase of development meant that the parent did not successfully toilet train a child (in the range of 1.5-3 years old). Here's a good explanation: psychology.about.com/library...500a.htm

      I don't think there is ANY scientific basis for these so called "psychosexual" stages of development. Sex is one drive amoung many in human beings and is expressed differently in many people. And in fact according to a survey I recently saw 15% of males and 30% of females have little or NO sex drive to speak of. There are so many countervailing forces at work in terms of human evolution and survival that it shouldn't be surprising that certain traits don't always express themselves how you would expect.

      "Nor do I recall him making claims of "suppressed memories". As far as I can tell this is some kind of early misinterpretation of Freud. It is the "drive" the is suppressed that then causes conflict within the person. "

      Repression involves repressed instinctual drives as you mentioned (which are also a cause of neuroses), while the defence mechanism of suppression was said to involve the suppression of memories of early tramatic experiences (check out the article on Wikipedia). The person may consciously suppress painful memories or unconsciously do so to the point where they actually can't remember them (amnesia). In fact Freud believed that by bringing these painful memories to the surface (to consciousness) you could treat the neurosis caused by their suppression. This theory is the basis from which the more modern phenomenon of "recovered memories" of childhood sexual abuse would rely on. And I don't have to tell you the damage that this phenomenon had on many families and how it has been largely discredited.
      • Re: Freud

        Thu, April 21, 2005 - 6:49 AM
        Modern refers to a specific period of history...

        Contemporary is different from Modern, and Freud and Freudians are Modern.

        so the way i see it, he's the father of Modern psychology, and a forefather of Contemporary psychology.

        parents are always wrong in the eyes of the youngsters.. yayaaa, roight

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